Curse

Tenebrae · Jul 14, 2010, 11:31 PM // 23:31

I dont see it. I read it , and i just dont see it. Sorry to tell you this but like many ppl said in this forum in other threads, ( me included ) dont fix it if its not broken.
Comparisons with other skills are bad mostly because :
1- Chants and stuff are IRREMOVABLE unlike Hexes , conditions and enchants
2- Some of P shouts cant be interrupted
3- Spears have faster attack rate than a bow ( cant compare with ranger stuff soz )
4- Ranged attackers should NEVER deal same damage or have same stuff than melee chars .

For the record i would say that only Moti skills REALLY need to be fixed and most of those fixes are a matter of recharge , energy cost , and casting times. Some of the changes fail due to stuff i said above and Desert Rose words :
"Even if your suggested skills would be equal in power to the "comparable" skills, a paragon that heals as good as a monk, removes hexes and conditions as good as a monk, deals as much damage as a warrior, interrupts as good as a ranger, protects the team as good as a monk, buffs the damage of the team as good as a necro wouldn't be balanced."

PS: Mending refrain was lol , same health regen , NO energy loss , maintainable in combat with 1-2 shouts and IRREMOVABLE .... please , you should REALLY spend some time thinking before writing ... no offense but changes like that are way out of place and balance.

belshazaarswrath · Jul 15, 2010, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

I dont see it. I read it , and i just dont see it. Sorry to tell you this but like many ppl said in this forum in other threads, ( me included ) dont fix it if its not broken.
Comparisons with other skills are bad mostly because :
1- Chants and stuff are IRREMOVABLE unlike Hexes , conditions and enchants
2- Some of P shouts cant be interrupted
3- Spears have faster attack rate than a bow ( cant compare with ranger stuff soz )
4- Ranged attackers should NEVER deal same damage or have same stuff than melee chars .

For the record i would say that only Moti skills REALLY need to be fixed and most of those fixes are a matter of recharge , energy cost , and casting times. Some of the changes fail due to stuff i said above and Desert Rose words :
"Even if your suggested skills would be equal in power to the "comparable" skills, a paragon that heals as good as a monk, removes hexes and conditions as good as a monk, deals as much damage as a warrior, interrupts as good as a ranger, protects the team as good as a monk, buffs the damage of the team as good as a necro wouldn't be balanced."

PS: Mending refrain was lol , same health regen , NO energy loss , maintainable in combat with 1-2 shouts and IRREMOVABLE .... please , you should REALLY spend some time thinking before writing ... no offense but changes like that are way out of place and balance.

As a person who plays his paragon often I have to disagree with most of what you're saying. They simply aren't adequate at dealing damage as of now and are behind every single class considerably. I agree that I don't think they should be able to do the same thing as every other class but better but I do think they need a function in the game beyond what they do now. They have (imby stricken) subpar everything. When you have subpar everything there needs to be a change.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 15, 2010, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

As a person who plays his paragon often I have to disagree with most of what you're saying. They simply aren't adequate at dealing damage as of now and are behind every single class considerably. I agree that I don't think they should be able to do the same thing as every other class but better but I do think they need a function in the game beyond what they do now. They have (imby stricken) subpar everything. When you have subpar everything there needs to be a change.

quoted for truth.

@ tenebrae: paragons and dervishes need help, no one ever wants to group with them, and you think this is okay? is that what you call balance? /sigh
aside from the obvious problems with these two professions Arenanet has already stated that they are working on updates for paragon and dervish, therefore Arenanet believes that they need some help. Therefore you are simply wrong.

re: paragon...
they are inferior to all other physicals at dealing damage. It is easy to prove that warrior, assassin, dervish and ranger can deal (vastly) more damage.

they are inferior to necromancers and monks at buffing physical attackers. Orders and Strength of Honor are simply superior to anything the paragon has to offer.

they are inferior to monks and ritualists at healing, and some say that this is as it should be. however the motivation skills as they stand now are so weak that they never see use outside of teams composed almost entirely of paragons and warriors.

their only strength in the game consists of abusing a Warrior PvE skill, and that is just sad. Many of the people here want to fix paragons and give them more options so that running something besides Imbagon is viable.
:-\

Gill Halendt · Jul 15, 2010, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

paragon...
they are inferior to all other physicals at dealing damage. It is easy to prove that warrior, assassin, dervish and ranger can deal (vastly) more damage.

they are inferior to necromancers and monks at buffing physical attackers. Orders and Strength of Honor are simply superior to anything the paragon has to offer.

they are inferior to monks and ritualists at healing, and some say that this is as it should be. however the motivation skills as they stand now are so weak that they never see use outside of teams composed almost entirely of paragons and warriors.

Paragons can fill a couple of these roles with a single bar, while still retaining all of the advantages mentioned before:

- Chants and shouts are not removable and often uninterruptible
- They usually have marginal or inexistent casting times, low costs and work on earshot
- Even so, chants and shouts have much less counters than any other party buff - Vocal Minority, Well of Silence, and adren-denial for adrenalin skills

- Spear attacks are ranged
- Still, the Paragon has the highest armor-level in the game together with Warriors, and that can easily be boosted with simple insignias

That's the core issue: as it was designed, the Paragon had to be a jack of all trades. It has so many abilities, and none of these is original, that it just couldn't be the master of any.

I agree they need some help. Paragons need some peculiarity on top of any tweak tough, as they're pretty much redundant as of now. What could that be? What could be their uniqueness, to give them a significant role in a party?

Smarty · Jul 15, 2010, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

- Even so, chants and shouts have much less counters than any other party buff - Vocal Minority, Well of Silence, and adren-denial for adrenalin skills

Not quoting you to aim this at you, you just happened to be the person who covered my pet peeve with playing paragon.

Vocal Minority and Soothing Images are ridiculous. There's usually more than one foe with one or both hexes in a group, and the recharge/duration of those hexes is also ridiculous compared with the recharge/duration/effect of the hex removal skills, given how complete the shutdown of a paragon is with either hex on them. If paragons weren't so reliant on adrenaline and shouts for energy management it wouldn't be such an issue, but as it is if you're playing paragon you pretty much have to build your team around keeping yourself clean if you're going to an area where you'll be facing either hex.

I'd like to see this changed - either tone down those hexes, or change paragons' reliance on shouts and adrenaline a little so that they're not completely useless when 3/4 of the skills on their bar are inactivated and their energy management is shut down for long periods of time.

EDIT: To give a comparison, it's like having diversion or dshot affect your entire bar at once. Pblock and blackout only shut down your whole bar for a few seconds; dshot and diversion shut down one skill at a time for a long time. Where's the fairness in paragons being vulnerable to two skills that work more like pblock with the duration of diversion?

Tenebrae · Jul 15, 2010, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

As a person who plays his paragon often I have to disagree with most of what you're saying. They simply aren't adequate at dealing damage as of now and are behind every single class considerably. I agree that I don't think they should be able to do the same thing as every other class but better but I do think they need a function in the game beyond what they do now. They have (imby stricken) subpar everything. When you have subpar everything there needs to be a change.

Disagree as much as you want , im telling the truth, plain and simple.
You should read the changes/ultrabuffs he suggests and see that is bloody hell far of what any1 will call "balanced".
They are not subpar in everything , rangers and dervishes are "on the low" too but soz pal , shit happens when you can do a lot of roles unlike the rest of the classes. Like some ppl say , Jack of all trades ..... but master of none.

And now an advice ; paragons are not a stand alone class , they need more paragons to gain power . All party has some prot and some healing but no monk can do it alone , they are 2 ..... use 2 P or 3 to fill roles , sync with the team and the other P and youll truly see your class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

@ tenebrae: paragons and dervishes need help, no one ever wants to group with them, and you think this is okay? is that what you call balance?

Stop putting words in my mouth ok ?.
What i know for sure is that your changes are so far from being balanced that you cant even reach the "b" from the word lol. You are pissed off because someone differs from your opinion ? deal with it because sometimes ( and i think this is one of these cases ) you will be wrong and other ppl will tell you so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

aside from the obvious problems with these two professions Arenanet has already stated that they are working on updates for paragon and dervish, therefore Arenanet believes that they need some help. Therefore you are simply wrong.

You failed at that equation.
Anet agrees D and P need some help/balance =\= P and D needs lots of overpowered stuff like you think.
Trying to fix something that is not broken is useless and like i said , only Moti line needs rebalance and maybe 2-5 skills from other att lines.

Seriously , think before writing and keep in mind things stuff that P have that i said before..... and now think about having 2-4 of them in a Party. If 1 of them can provide the best defense , another one the best attack buff , another one decent heal and rest a good or decent DPS .... WTH ? lets erase the rest of the classes !

Dude 80% or more of your suggestions are overpowered , im not the only one who thinks that ..... in fact , i think that you are almost alone thinking otherwise.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 15, 2010, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Paragons can fill a couple of these roles with a single bar, while still retaining all of the advantages mentioned before:

- Chants and shouts are not removable and often uninterruptible
- They usually have marginal or inexistent casting times, low costs and work on earshot
- Even so, chants and shouts have much less counters than any other party buff - Vocal Minority, Well of Silence, and adren-denial for adrenalin skills

- Spear attacks are ranged
- Still, the Paragon has the highest armor-level in the game together with Warriors, and that can easily be boosted with simple insignias

That's the core issue: as it was designed, the Paragon had to be a jack of all trades. It has so many abilities, and none of these is original, that it just couldn't be the master of any.

I agree they need some help. Paragons need some peculiarity on top of any tweak tough, as they're pretty much redundant as of now. What could that be? What could be their uniqueness, to give them a significant role in a party?

The problem is that the paragon cannot fill any of these roles adequately compared to the competition. The other physical attackers do much more damage, the necromancers and monks buff physical attackers much better than paragon, and the ritualists and monks put paragon's healing to shame except in special cases. Paragon does not excel at anything other than PvE skill abuse so it is no wonder that they are not desired in teams. Ritualist is also a jack-of-all-trades character, the difference is that the ritualist has a number of areas where it can excel. Paragon needs the same treatment.

BTW I agree with your assertion that there need to be more counters to shouts and such, but right now those skills are poorly implemented in the game. Take Vocal Minority for example... it completely prevents shouting for a very long time, 5..17..20 seconds, and affects all nearby. Compare this to Shroud of Silence which prevents spellcasting for 1..3..3 seconds, is a touch skill, and elite on top of that. Is there some reason why paragons should be punished 7x longer than spellcasters, and much more easily? Instead of paragon-hate skills like this I think the adrenaline hate skills should be less costly and more effective, that would shut down the paragon's energy flow, thus stopping the shouts indirectly. Of course adrenaline hate will have an effect on warriors as well, which is probably why Anet has not made those changes...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Disagree as much as you want , im telling the truth, plain and simple.
You should read the changes/ultrabuffs he suggests and see that is bloody hell far of what any1 will call "balanced".
They are not subpar in everything , rangers and dervishes are "on the low" too but soz pal , shit happens when you can do a lot of roles unlike the rest of the classes. Like some ppl say , Jack of all trades ..... but master of none.

And now an advice ; paragons are not a stand alone class , they need more paragons to gain power . All party has some prot and some healing but no monk can do it alone , they are 2 ..... use 2 P or 3 to fill roles , sync with the team and the other P and youll truly see your class.

paragons work better in groups? o rly?
Thank you captain obvious.

The problem is that paragons are not good enough at *anything* for a team to have more than one paragon, and if a paragon is part of the team at all he is playing Imbagon. Everyone can observe this for themselves when they log into guildwars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Seriously , think before writing and keep in mind things stuff that P have that i said before..... and now think about having 2-4 of them in a Party. If 1 of them can provide the best defense , another one the best attack buff , another one decent heal and rest a good or decent DPS .... WTH ? lets erase the rest of the classes !

o right! i see what you are saying... having multiples of one class has never been done before! except for sabway, discordway, ritway, rojway, cryway, iway, bloodspike, rspike and the deviant permasin crap we see in guildwars these days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Dude 80% or more of your suggestions are overpowered , im not the only one who thinks that ..... in fact , i think that you are almost alone thinking otherwise.

I've got no problem with differences of opinion, the problem is that all of the paragon haters who come in here have plenty of opinions but little evidence to back them up. If you think any of those suggestions are overpowered then please explain why. The important thing is making the skills useful and giving the paragons useful roles within a group; the skill numbers can always be tweaked appropriately. Anything we suggest will go through a sanity check and playtesting from Anet and the test krewe before we ever see it in the game.

Tenebrae · Jul 15, 2010, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

paragons work better in groups? o rly?
Thank you captain obvious.

Well you are trying to make them a single stand alone machine at X task , by themselves so yo seem to ignore that fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

The problem is that paragons are not good enough at *anything* for a team to have more than one paragon, and if a paragon is part of the team at all he is playing Imbagon. Everyone can observe this for themselves when they log into guildwars.

Wrong and False. It looks more like a QQ than something based on empirical facts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

o right! i see what you are saying... having multiples of one class has never been done before! except for sabway, discordway, ritway, rojway, cryway, iway, bloodspike, rspike and the deviant permasin crap we see in guildwars these days.

Misreading and overexagerating , very mature. If your changes are done , there wont be multiple copies of P , a FULL P group will blast thru any shit in the game and no , those comparisons ( lol you fail at comparisons once again ) arent valid because they are not the BEST at ALL ROLES like you want them P's to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I've got no problem with differences of opinion, the problem is that all of the paragon haters who come in here have plenty of opinions but little evidence to back them up.

Yeah no problem with diff opinions but anyone who differs is a paragon hater right ? lol you cant be more wrong if you think that about me.
For the evidences , i have them all and i told you why your overpowered buffs comparing with other skills are wrong , i have nothing more to say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

If you think any of those suggestions are overpowered then please explain why. The important thing is making the skills useful and giving the paragons useful roles within a group; the skill numbers can always be tweaked appropriately. Anything we suggest will go through a sanity check and playtesting from Anet and the test krewe before we ever see it in the game.

Yeah because this thread is worth to debate ANY SINGLE change of skill you suggest ...... right. I gave the mending example and explained myself and instead you didnt argue , therefore i guess you know im right and you know it.

If your tactic is "lets suggest 0984356093 overpowered stuff and maybe when Anet checks it they will give us at least 6-10 overpowered changed skills" i gotta tell you , that has a very high chance to fail.

From now on , unless you proof that what i ( and many ppl ) said in #201 is wrong , im not posting anymore . Im not doing a C&P of your suggestions and explaining below every skill change why is right/whatever/wrong , not worth the time soz.

Gill Halendt · Jul 15, 2010, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

The problem is that the paragon cannot fill any of these roles adequately compared to the competition. The other physical attackers do much more damage, the necromancers and monks buff physical attackers much better than paragon, and the ritualists and monks put paragon's healing to shame except in special cases. Paragon does not excel at anything other than PvE skill abuse so it is no wonder that they are not desired in teams. Ritualist is also a jack-of-all-trades character, the difference is that the ritualist has a number of areas where it can excel. Paragon needs the same treatment.

- Other physical attackers are usually dedicated damage dealers and not support classes also dealing some damage like the Paragon.
- Other physical attackers rely on buffs to do that much damage. Most of these buffs are available to Paragons as well.
- Other physical attackers deal more damage in melee, the Paragon is a ranged physical, so it's fine as it is damage wise.
- Other Physicals (except the Warrior) could really use some better AC, but it's the Paragon (ranged) who actually got it.
- Paragons can cover too many roles at once to excel at any. All the examples you mention are pretty much dedicated characters (Orders), while Paragons can play multiple roles with greater bar compression. That implies moderate but not excellent effectiveness at all of these roles.
- Ritualists don't excel @ anything but spirit-spam, which is the Ritualist equivalent of the Imbagon, so the Paragon pretty much had the same treatment already. As healers, Primary Rits are often unwanted and, if anything, N/Rts are preferred. Channelling sees little play outside of the DwG spam. Not to mention that most spirit builds work just fine as a secondary Ritualist, while the Imbagon still is a Paragon exclusive.

Desert Rose · Jul 15, 2010, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

And we have an existing skill to balance against. Brace Yourself as it exists now is not useful at all.

Yes, but the skill to balance your version of "Brace Yourself!" against is called "Don't Trip!".

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

(...)When you have subpar everything there needs to be a change.

That may be true, but making the paragon two times stronger than every other profession isn't better either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

they are inferior to all other physicals at dealing damage. It is easy to prove that warrior, assassin, dervish and ranger can deal (vastly) more damage.

Try do (vastly) outdamage a scythe- or dagger-paragon with a dervish or a ranger. If you have succeeded please share your builds.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 15, 2010, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Yes, but the skill to balance your version of "Brace Yourself!" against is called "Don't Trip!".

I agree, that is the most similar skill in the game to copy, but "Don't Trip" is useless because its duration is much too short. I don't carry that skill even in areas where I know there are mass knockdowns because it is not enough to prevent the knockdowns to any significant degree. Ward of Stability owns it completely. "Don't Trip" needs a huge buff to be useful, but that's another topic... I am not pushing for changes to any PvE skills at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

That may be true, but making the paragon two times stronger than every other profession isn't better either.

This is a *huge* exaggeration and you know it.
Even if all of my suggestions were implemented without modification, I would expect the following:

Paragon becomes roughly equivalent to the ranger in terms of damage;
Paragon becomes equal (possibly superior in some ways) to the necromancer in terms of buffs to physical attackers; still no Barbs or Mark of Pain though, so Necromancer does not have much to worry about
Paragon becomes worse at direct healing and better at healing over time, meaning that he is more focused on party support rather than competing directly with healing professions like Monk and Ritualist;
Paragon continues to be strong at party defense and has additional options so that Imbagon is not the only build worth using.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Try do (vastly) outdamage a scythe- or dagger-paragon with a dervish or a ranger. If you have succeeded please share your builds.

See that's exactly the problem... paragon skills are weak, so the only way to deal decent damage with a paragon is to become another profession. :-\

Scythe Dervish obviously beats a scythe-wielding paragon and a ranger can wield a scythe with equivalent damage (and far better energy management) as well. Let's not even compare assassins.

re: rangers.... Glass Arrows, Triple Shot, Dual Shot, Forked Arrow, Asuran Scan. Against many foes, they have Barrage, Volley, Incendiary Arrows and then you add Splinter Weapon on top of that. Paragon cannot compete with rangers at all because 1) no multi-shot capability 2) no inherent damage buffs like Glass Arrows or Read The Wind or even Favorable Winds.

Gill Halendt · Jul 15, 2010, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

.
Even if all of my suggestions were implemented without modification, I would expect the following:

Paragon becomes roughly equivalent to the ranger in terms of damage;
Paragon becomes equal (possibly superior in some ways) to the necromancer in terms of buffs to physical attackers; still no Barbs or Mark of Pain though, so Necromancer does not have much to worry about
Paragon becomes worse at direct healing and better at healing over time, meaning that he is more focused on party support rather than competing directly with healing professions like Monk and Ritualist;
Paragon continues to be strong at party defense and has additional options so that Imbagon is not the only build worth using.

And that's the actual problem. Can't you see how imbalanced this would be? They go from "Master of none" to "Master of everything"...

Additional options and strong party defense, fine. But not together with everything else you expect.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 15, 2010, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

- Other physical attackers are usually dedicated damage dealers and not support classes also dealing some damage like the Paragon.
- Other physical attackers rely on buffs to do that much damage. Most of these buffs are available to Paragons as well.

Yes, but unlike the other professions the paragon does not have any multi-attack or multi-hit capability to take advantage of these buffs. Think about how Hundred Blades/Whirlwind Attack/Splinter Barrage/Death Blossom work and it becomes apparent why paragon loses to all other damage dealers in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

- Other physical attackers deal more damage in melee, the Paragon is a ranged physical, so it's fine as it is damage wise.

I'm not suggesting that paragons deal as much damage as melee; without Strength of Honor, this is impossible. However the ranger has multi-attack capability and that makes it far superior to paragon in terms of damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

- Other Physicals (except the Warrior) could really use some better AC, but it's the Paragon (ranged) who actually got it.

Rangers have worse armor than paragon vs. physical and much better vs. elemental; and less armor vs. physical hardly matters since they attack from long range. They have always been ranged attackers.

Assassins and Dervishes have +24 armor (at least) for as long as they want it. You'd be crazy not to take Critical Agility on an assassin or Conviction on a dervish... permanent +24 armor / +33% IAS or +24 armor / 50% blocking? Yes please.

That said, I don't think the armor differences are that important. Save Yourselves covers up all differences and Protective Spirit makes anyone into a tank.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

- Paragons can cover too many roles at once to excel at any. All the examples you mention are pretty much dedicated characters (Orders), while Paragons can play multiple roles with greater bar compression. That implies moderate but not excellent effectiveness at all of these roles.
- Ritualists don't excel @ anything but spirit-spam, which is the Ritualist equivalent of the Imbagon, so the Paragon pretty much had the same treatment already. As healers, Primary Rits are often unwanted and, if anything, N/Rts are preferred. Channelling sees little play outside of the DwG spam. Not to mention that most spirit builds work just fine as a secondary Ritualist, while the Imbagon still is a Paragon exclusive.

Ritualists have excellent healing skills, that is why you see N/Rt healers rather than N/Mo.
Ritualists have excellent party defense with Shelter, Union, Displacement, etc.
Ritualists have excellent damage with Signet of Spirits, Painful Bond, etc. as well as direct offense such as DwG, Spirit Rift, Ancestor's Rage.

Of all these things that the ritualist can do, paragon can only do one of them well, and that is party defense. And even that role is only possible with PvE skills (namely SY and TNTF) rather than any of the native paragon skills. :-(
Compare and contrast with the Ritualist who can perform the party defense role very well with no PvE skills at all. Do you really believe they are balanced?

to answer your first point (about bar compression)... in-game evidence seems to indicate that this so-called advantage is not as great as you think or else not valued at all because we don't see anyone clamoring for paragons in their group. If paragons were meant to be 'support' characters only, (whatever that means) then they should logically have better support skills than other professions... but they don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

And that's the actual problem. Can't you see how imbalanced this would be? They go from "Master of none" to "Master of everything"...

Additional options and strong party defense, fine. But not together with everything else you expect.

let's use the necromancer and ritualist as case studies for comparison.

ritualist has excellent damage, excellent defense, good healing capability, and good physical attacker buffs

necromancer has excellent physical attack buffs, excellent hexing/shutdown, excellent damage and damage prevention (ie. minions), and the best energy management in the game.

both of these professions are jack-of-all-trades professions that can do many things well if they dedicate skill slots and attributes to them. the difference is that necromancer and ritualist can perform any of their roles very well, whereas paragon can't do anything well at the moment besides party defense. Whatever modifications are made to paragon you'd still have to choose what area you want to excel in... a paragon that is strong on party buffs would necessarily be moderate or weak on damage. This is no different than the choice that a necromancer must make when he decides to go party support (orders) or damage (minions) or shutdown (hexes). there aren't enough skill slots or attributes to do everything well.

Gill Halendt · Jul 15, 2010, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Yes, but unlike the other professions the paragon does not have any multi-attack or multi-hit capability to take advantage of these buffs. Think about how Hundred Blades/Whirlwind Attack/Splinter Barrage/Death Blossom work and it becomes apparent why paragon loses to all other damage dealers in PvE.

Don't compare ranged attackers to melee attackers...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I'm not suggesting that paragons deal as much damage as melee; without Strength of Honor, this is impossible. However the ranger has multi-attack capability and that makes it far superior to paragon in terms of damage.

Sure. Then make Rangers able to support the party as much as the Paragon. For balance, that is...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Ritualists have excellent healing skills, that is why you see N/Rt healers rather than N/Mo.

They're just cheaper, spammable and easier to manage for hero AI. They're far from "excellent". That's why you see N/Rt heroes but still human healers are usually Monks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Ritualists have excellent party defense with Shelter, Union, Displacement, etc.

Most of these are not that excellent in everyday use, as Spirits are often weak, and their effects have short duration. They might be good but surely not that much better than Paragon party defenses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Of all these things that the ritualist can do, paragon can only do one of them well, and that is party defense. And even that role is only possible with PvE skills (namely SY and TNTF) rather than any of the native paragon skills. :-(
Compare and contrast with the Ritualist who can perform the party defense role very well with no PvE skills at all. Do you really believe they are balanced?

You seem to forget that spirit spamming is only viable when using... guess what? a PvE-Only skill (Summon Spirits). Restoration is really nothing to write home about and Restoration Rits don't see that much play anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

to answer your first point (about bar compression)... in-game evidence seems to indicate that this so-called advantage is not as great as you think or else not valued at all because we don't see anyone clamoring for paragons in their group.

So, you base the considerations on the effectiveness of a class on their success and following in the game alone.

I didn't see anyone clamoring for Assassing before the Perma builds, I don't see anyone clamoring for Mesmers even after the recent buff... I do see clamoring for Ritualists (Spirit Spammers only) and Paragons (Imbagons) much more often. So, let's safely assume that Assassins suck and are just good as Permasins, Mesmers still suck and Ritualists and Paragons are in demand.

/sarcasm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

If paragons were meant to be 'support' characters only, (whatever that means) then they should logically have better support skills than other professions... but they don't.

Paragons weren't meant to be "support only", they wouldn't be wielding a Spear otherwise. There's no such a thing as a "support only" class in GW, maybe just the Monk profession. Paragons as you yourself said are jack-of-all-trades, their ability to fill multiple roles must be compensated by some lack of focus: they excell at neither damage nor defense. Or better yet, they're excellent as Imbagons for defense, as much as Ritualists are excellent as damage dealers thanks to Spirit Spam, and little else.

So, give them better support skills and strip them of their damage capabilities, make most Paragon defensive skills strippable/interruptable/removable like the competition. Or leave them as they are and tweak a few skills so that Motivation is more effective. Turning Paragons into the ultimate warmachine doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

let's use the necromancer and ritualist as case studies for comparison.

ritualist has excellent damage, excellent defense, good healing capability, and good physical attacker buffs

Ritualist have ONE viable build for damage (Spirit Spam), ONE gimmick rit-based team build (Glaiveway) that just relies on one Rit skill, average healing capability, a couple of buffs for physicals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

necromancer has excellent physical attack buffs, excellent hexing/shutdown, excellent damage and damage prevention (ie. minions), and the best energy management in the game..

And both classes need to focus on either one or the other role. You either play your Ritualist as a Spirit Spammer or as a Resto Rit or play hybrid builds and do with less damage or less support. You either play your Necromancer as a damage dealer and give up some support, play it as a Minion Master or play it as a dedicated supporter (Orders, N/Rt).

As a Paragon you wield a spear and do damage with it and build up adrenaline to fuel your shouts. You both do damage and support, but can't expect to excell in both roles, expecially not when your defenses are pretty much impossible to remove once applied.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 15, 2010, 04:13 PM // 16:13

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Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Yeah because this thread is worth to debate ANY SINGLE change of skill you suggest ...... right. I gave the mending example and explained myself and instead you didnt argue , therefore i guess you know im right and you know it.

If your tactic is "lets suggest 0984356093 overpowered stuff and maybe when Anet checks it they will give us at least 6-10 overpowered changed skills" i gotta tell you , that has a very high chance to fail.

From now on , unless you proof that what i ( and many ppl ) said in #201 is wrong , im not posting anymore . Im not doing a C&P of your suggestions and explaining below every skill change why is right/whatever/wrong , not worth the time soz.

/sigh

Here's a point by point rebuttal of your post #201. Anyone with an objective point of view can see that I speak truth.

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Originally Posted by Tenebrae

I dont see it. I read it , and i just dont see it. Sorry to tell you this but like many ppl said in this forum in other threads, ( me included ) dont fix it if its not broken.
Comparisons with other skills are bad mostly because :
1- Chants and stuff are IRREMOVABLE unlike Hexes , conditions and enchants
2- Some of P shouts cant be interrupted
3- Spears have faster attack rate than a bow ( cant compare with ranger stuff soz )
4- Ranged attackers should NEVER deal same damage or have same stuff than melee chars .

1- this is true, and I think there should better counters to them... for example, skills that reduce shout duration within an area or prevent a foe from being affected by shouts, chants, and echoes.
2- shouts cannot be interrupted at all, this is a basic trait of the 'shout' skill type. warriors have shouts too. You can't interrupt stances either, does that mean that any profession with stances is overpowered?
3- spears can attack faster than a bow, but paragons have no multi-attack capability so this doesn't matter. Ranger can hit you with 2 or 3 arrows at once or barrage a group and hit 7 times. rangers also have inherent damage buffs like Glass Arrows, Read The Wind, Favorable Winds. ranger beats paragon in all cases.
4- I never said that paragons should be able to deal equivalent damage to melee. What I am hoping for is (near) equivalent damage to the ranger... but ranger will still be better because of the inherent damage buffs i mentioned above.

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Originally Posted by Tenebrae

For the record i would say that only Moti skills REALLY need to be fixed and most of those fixes are a matter of recharge , energy cost , and casting times. Some of the changes fail due to stuff i said above and Desert Rose words :
"Even if your suggested skills would be equal in power to the "comparable" skills, a paragon that heals as good as a monk, removes hexes and conditions as good as a monk, deals as much damage as a warrior, interrupts as good as a ranger, protects the team as good as a monk, buffs the damage of the team as good as a necro wouldn't be balanced."

Paragon has good condition removal already but they cannot ever deal with hexes as well as a monk because of PnH, Divert Hexes, Convert Hexes, etc. Paragon has mass hex removal that he cannot use (lol) because he has no spells.
Paragon cannot deal as much damage as a warrior (and never will) because he does not have Strength of Honor, inherent armor penetration from strength, and no multi-hit or multi-attack skills to take advantage of buffs.
Paragon only has one interrupt skill and it is terrible compared to what the ranger has, you're really reaching on this one.
Paragon can protect the team as well as a monk... possibly, but only with PvE skills. Even then, he does not have anything that can match Protective Spirit, Spirit Bond, Guardian, Shield of Absorption, Life Bond, etc. etc.
Paragon cannot buff physical attackers as well as a necromancer, nor even close at present; however this was clearly part of the paragon's design and something that the paragon SHOULD be good at. The paragon skills are simply underpowered compared to what the necromancer and monk can provide.

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Originally Posted by Tenebrae

PS: Mending refrain was lol , same health regen , NO energy loss , maintainable in combat with 1-2 shouts and IRREMOVABLE .... please , you should REALLY spend some time thinking before writing ... no offense but changes like that are way out of place and balance.

one word: Recuperation. +3 health regen to all, no energy loss, maintainable in combat, unremovable unless you kill the spirit.

my suggestion was to increase Mending Refrain's effect by +1 health regen and increase the duration slightly... in other words, revert back to the way it was before the last nerf. This is not a major change.

Gill Halendt · Jul 15, 2010, 04:33 PM // 16:33

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Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

1- this is true, and I think there should better counters to them... for example, skills that reduce shout duration within an area or prevent a foe from being affected by shouts, chants, and echoes.

But there aren't, and you can't just expect to:

- Introduce new skills
- Heavily rework some skills to introduce new mechanics

just to make the Paragon competitive... At the very least, Paragons as supporters have a HUGE advantage for this already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

2- shouts cannot be interrupted at all, this is a basic trait of the 'shout' skill type. warriors have shouts too. You can't interrupt stances either, does that mean that any profession with stances is overpowered?

If you base your whole role on providing unremovable buffs to the party, yes, if those buffs are too significant, which is exactly what you're suggesting.

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Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

3- spears can attack faster than a bow, but paragons have no multi-attack capability so this doesn't matter. Ranger can hit you with 2 or 3 arrows at once or barrage a group and hit 7 times. rangers also have inherent damage buffs like Glass Arrows, Read The Wind, Favorable Winds. ranger beats paragon in all cases.

Rangers don't have any support capabilities, so they compensate with multi-target attacks and more damage, together with damage-mitigation with interruption, which is far from being as effective as party-wide buffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

4- I never said that paragons should be able to deal equivalent damage to melee. What I am hoping for is (near) equivalent damage to the ranger... but ranger will still be better because of the inherent damage buffs i mentioned above.

Why? Rangers can't support their team as much as Paragons, so I don't see a reason to give Paragons equivalent damage to the Ranger unless the Ranger is given equivalent party-defenses and support capabilities to compensate.

Then, you'd basically end up with two redundant classes.

Paragon has good condition removal already but they cannot ever deal with hexes as well as a monk because of PnH, Divert Hexes, Convert Hexes, etc. Paragon has mass hex removal that he cannot use (lol) because he has no spells.

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Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Paragon cannot deal as much damage as a warrior (and never will) because he does not have Strength of Honor, inherent armor penetration from strength, and no multi-hit or multi-attack skills to take advantage of buffs.

Didn't you just say you don't expect Paragons to deal as much damage as physicals?

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Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Paragon can protect the team as well as a monk... possibly, but only with PvE skills. Even then, he does not have anything that can match Protective Spirit, Spirit Bond, Guardian, Shield of Absorption, Life Bond, etc. etc.

Monks would love unremovable buffs and more damage options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

one word: Recuperation. +3 health regen to all, no energy loss, maintainable in combat, unremovable unless you kill the spirit.

One word and one number: 25 energy. You also need to cast it everytime the Spirit expires or it's killed, while Mending Refrain renews itself pretty easily.

Spirits are also easily targeted and destroyed, so there you go.

Tenebrae · Jul 15, 2010, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Thanks for saving me some time Halendt. Seriously Khomet , no . No matter how you look at it , 80% or more of your suggestions are way overpowered.

PS: LoL @ "Rangers beat paragon in all cases" omg.

Lanier · Jul 15, 2010, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Sorry to butt into you two's argument but iv got to defend my rit. He is my most used character after all.

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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Ritualist have ONE viable build for damage (Spirit Spam), ONE gimmick rit-based team build (Glaiveway) that just relies on one Rit skill, average healing capability, a couple of buffs for physicals.

Sry man but this is completely incorrect. Ritualists can do so much more than spirit spam which is why I am actually pushing for a nerf to SoS, spirit siphon, and summon spirits. Ritualists are just good at so many things.

Ritualists can heal very well. They may not have more of a variety of spells than monks but their spells they do have heal for a higher amount than most non-elite monk heals and even several elite monk heals. Soothing memories, wielder's boon, mend body & soul, spirit light, and ghostmirror's light are all just as effective or more effective than their monk counterparts. Spirit's light weapon heals for an insane amount of health, and Xinrai's weapon and weapon of remedy are good as well. Weapon of Warding and Weapon of Shadow are very good anti-melee prots and are just as good as the monk anti-melee prots. Protective was kaolai, life, and recuperation all make good party heals. Simply put, while rits may not have as many options as monks have due to only having one attribute compared to the monk's three attributes, the spells that rits do have for healing are just as good as the best spells available to monks. I dont see how you can say that a rit's healing is "average". Oh, and a rit restorer on a human is better than a necro restorer on a human b/c as a human, managing energy as a resto rit is pretty easy. The reason why n/rt's have become popular is because heroes suck at managing energy and need the godmode energy management that soul reaping makes available to them. On humans, rit > n/rt.

As for rit's damage dealing options, it is true that SoS spirit spam is a little too powerful. However, they have other options that are good (not overpowered like SoS but still good) ways of inflicting damage. DwG and Cruel was daoshen give armor penetration making their direct lightning damage effective in HM. There are many direct damage lightning spells like spirit's rift (cracked armor means even more armor penetration), channeled strike, spirit burn, ancestor's rage, caretaker's charge etc. that can be effectively used in general PvE. In short, rits have good offensive abilities besides just SoS.

Rit's also have very effective defensive skills in the form of Shelter, Union, and Displacement. With soul twisting, armor of the unseen, and summon spirits, it is easy to maintain shelter and union (thus negating a vast majority of the damage done party wide) and displacement can be kept up pretty often as well, if not maintained. A constant party wide prot spirit + shielding hands + almost constant 75% block is definetly good enough to stand in for a prot monk.

Finally, rits have more than just a few physical buffs. From splinter to sundering weapon to weapon of fury to nightmare weapon, rits have options for all types of physical buffs. At the same time, they can keep physicals condition free with wielder's remedy and can support casters with weapon of quickening or do extra damage to the enemy with vengeaful weapon. It is true that these weapons can not stack but if you have splinter, vengeful, and weapon of warding/resilient weapon with weapon of remedy, a rage, and whatever other healing or damage skills you want to bring, you can have a very good supportive build.

In addition, rits can do a shitload of damage in physical with spirit's strength and can minion bomb better than necros thanks to added damage from explosive growth and added support from spirit's gift.

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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

They're just cheaper, spammable and easier to manage for hero AI. They're far from "excellent". That's why you see N/Rt heroes but still human healers are usually Monks.

You don't see human rit's because SoS is overpowered and every rit and their brother wants to abuse having an army of spirits. For some reason, many people find doing damage to be more fun than healing, so they choose to use the OP (which needs a nerf) SoS over... well... any other build. However, saying that everything else is bad because rits only use SoS is inaccurate. This is just a testament for how OP SoS spirit spamming is.

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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Most of these are not that excellent in everyday use, as Spirits are often weak, and their effects have short duration. They might be good but surely not that much better than Paragon party defenses.

Spirits are really easy to keep alive with summon spirits. If using one of those rare spirits that inflicts damage on itself like earthbind+wanderlust or shelter+union, armor of unfeeling solves that problem. Keeping alive spirits really isn't tough at all.

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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Restoration is really nothing to write home about and Restoration Rits don't see that much play anyway.

So yea...i already addressed this above. Saying that a build is weak because it doesnt see play is not always accurate.

Steps_Descending · Jul 15, 2010, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Why? Rangers can't support their team as much as Paragons, so I don't see a reason to give Paragons equivalent damage to the Ranger unless the Ranger is given equivalent party-defenses and support capabilities to compensate.

Actually I think komet is proposing equivalent "base damage", I think the way he sees it, ranger would still get better dps because of those +dmg that ranger have a lot. And then, there's also AoE attacks. So they wouldn't be that redundant.

Then, you'd basically end up with two redundant classes.

Paragon has good condition removal already but they cannot ever deal with hexes as well as a monk because of PnH, Divert Hexes, Convert Hexes, etc. Paragon has mass hex removal that he cannot use (lol) because he has no spells.
I don't think para problem come from there.

Monks would love unremovable buffs and more damage options.

Doesn't change the fact that if your strength is too diluted, you wind up not with a jack-of-all trade, you wind up with a character who cannot do anything. Would you take a player with 0 stat-points spent and 1 skill of evey role? He's a jack-of-all trade too! (that's an exageration, i know)

One word and one number: 25 energy. You also need to cast it everytime the Spirit expires or it's killed, while Mending Refrain renews itself pretty easily.
Some other words:
->Beyond shout range (that means unkillable)
-> soul twisting (25 =/= 10 energy + instant recharge)
-> if you cast once every minute, you can pay that 25 energy easily if you try. Rit are one of those class who have few problem with energy because you are not always casting something.

Spirits are also easily targeted and destroyed,

Summon spirit, placing them outside range (spirit range means around 2.5 agro range, mobs don't go that far). And they dont just explode on the first hit y'know.

EDIT : Concerning resto, it may not be the best line, but it works well enough to play the role it is suposed to serve : main or 2nd healer.
A lot of skills I saw dont seem to be good enough to fulfill their role. If a paragon is 1/3 dmg, 1/3 support and 1/3 healer, having less than 3-4 of them is like having a free slot. So they won't get a role outside of full para teams, where the "1/3 <role>" will add up to make a balanced something.

...

replies in bold.

Beyond that, I noticed if paras don't have AoE, at least being able to kill something would be a nice buff. I toyed with some para bars and I couldn't find any bar where I felt I was hiting enough to warrant my place. Most mobs wouldjust be blown by the next hits right after me. If someone can give me a combo that can make sure a foe is taken down (with party support, that means just a little disruption is enough to garranty the kill), that point is pretty much moot. Even if the combo is doable once per 10 sec, that wouldalready give paras the punch they need to be decent as damage.

Another things most "meta" classes have is party wide protection. what do paras have? SY (1per team), party wide utility (hex removal/ energy gain), party wide defense(that wears off when you attack/do something), and single target echos.
SY is limiting.
utilities are very specialised and hard to control, And they require specific trigger.
defense requires a synchronised team.
single targets echo will in the end only affect 2-3 people out of 8, so why bother when others have better.

They could emphasis the need for a synchronised team. Giving great effects if you can use them. But good teams exists and they would use it to the full potential.
Or make the specialised skills more versatile. I know I am not the first one to say this, but why not just make those skills like "never surender" and lyric of zeal another effect if the condition isn't met.

Then there's the pvp-balanced-cooldowns, 20 sec cd for a chant that trigers once in a 10 sec window just doesn't cut it in GW PvE. It's more of a PvE problem if you ask me, but we aren't the ones who designed the areas.

Desert Rose · Jul 15, 2010, 07:08 PM // 19:08

[QUOTE=Khomet Si Netjer;5196475]I agree, that is the most similar skill in the game to copy, but "Don't Trip" is useless because its duration is much too short. I don't carry that skill even in areas where I know there are mass knockdowns because it is not enough to prevent the knockdowns to any significant degree. Ward of Stability owns it completely.[/qoute]
And your version of "Brace Yourself!" owns Ward of Stablity for the same degree: ~7 times bigger area, faster cast time, no aftercast delay, better duration/recharge time ratio.

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This is a *huge* exaggeration and you know it.
Even if all of my suggestions were implemented without modification, I would expect the following:

Paragon becomes roughly equivalent to the ranger in terms of damage;
Paragon becomes equal (possibly superior in some ways) to the necromancer in terms of buffs to physical attackers; still no Barbs or Mark of Pain though, so Necromancer does not have much to worry about
Paragon becomes worse at direct healing and better at healing over time, meaning that he is more focused on party support rather than competing directly with healing professions like Monk and Ritualist;
Paragon continues to be strong at party defense and has additional options so that Imbagon is not the only build worth using.

No, it's spot-on, since you are ignoring once again that Paragons would be able to do 2-3 things from that list simultaneously.

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See that's exactly the problem... paragon skills are weak, so the only way to deal decent damage with a paragon is to become another profession.

Ranged professions were never meant to deal good damage. And btw, bow rangers are comparable weak damage dealers too. A dedicated bow ranger deals at best about ~80 single target DPS, Barrage Rangers are weak unless you tailor the entire team build around them, and even in that case a team build that is tailored around other classes (i.e. Searing Flames eles) is in general better.

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Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Whatever modifications are made to paragon you'd still have to choose what area you want to excel in... a paragon that is strong on party buffs would necessarily be moderate or weak on damage.

That is exactly what your suggestions lacks at the moment; the paragon would excel at multiple roles at the same time.
To achive that you need to add "All your weapon mastery attributes are reduced to 0 for the next 10 seconds" for all of your changed shouts, shants and echos or so.

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Originally Posted by Lanier

Ritualists are just good at so many things.

Yes, they are good at many things, but other classes can perform those things better, sometimes even far better than the ritu. A pure restro ritu, a pure spirit spammer or a pure channeling ritu is nearly always a wasted team slot. Their strenght, like paragons, comes from their ability to do multiple things good at the same time.